“Even though the task is complicated, it is worth it.” Despite the challenges and criticisms, Christophe Béchu does not regret his arrival at the “ministry of the impossible”, in July 2022. A few hours before flying to COP28 in Dubai, the Minister of Ecological Transition and Cohesion of the territories answers the questions of 20 minutes. He discusses France’s expectations for this climate conference, the difficulty of influencing government decisions, and responds to the recent controversy over his multiple plane trips.
We have been unable to meet the +1.5°C target linked to the Paris agreement. Are COPs really of any interest?
The COP is being held this year in Dubai, it is chaired by the boss of an oil company to discuss the exit from fossil fuels. I can understand why people wonder if it serves any purpose. We generally arrive with a lot of hope and in the end, when we see reluctance or retreat to assume strong positions on the international level, we have disappointing results.
The truth is that this is not the magic recipe; but what would have happened if there had not been the Paris agreement? The COP is to the climate what democracy is to the organization of societies. As Churchill said, “it is the worst system to the exclusion of all others”.
But is it the right format?
This is the most visible, but there are others. There is no longer a G7 or a G20 where we do not discuss ecology. We are also doing it at the level of the European Union with the Green Deal [accord européen pour viser la neutralité carbone en 2050]. It is not by refusing to discuss with other countries that we will succeed in resolving the problem.
Sultan al-Jaber is CEO of an oil group. Was this the right profile to chair this COP28?
It was not France that chose it, nor Europe. But there is a principle in environmental diplomacy, it is the rotation of continents. And now it is the turn of the Gulf countries, which are not the most committed to phasing out fossil fuels. But it is only by convincing these countries which depend on oil that we will be able to move away from fossil fuels.
Can we hope for an agreement on the exit from fossil fuels during this COP28?
Anything you can get, you have to go get it. The ideal would be a firm exit date on fossil fuels. Failing that, a date per type of fossil energy. And if not, at least commitments on coal, the leading source of greenhouse gases in the world. Furthermore, we have already had good news on the issues of climate justice and solidarity, with the creation of a “loss and damage” fund to support the most fragile countries. And on the commitment of 120 countries, out of the 195 present, to triple investments in renewable energies.
Speaking of getting out of fossil fuels, a controversial oil drilling project in Gironde is underway. Isn’t that paradoxical?
There are oil slicks in France. The one in Gironde has been exploited for sixty-five years, and there are currently requests for authorization for new wells within this aquifer. We must move away from a form of environmental hypocrisy which would mean closing wells in France to increase the share of oil we import. France has a timetable: in 2040, all existing drilling will be closed. But getting out of oil means above all getting rid of dependence on fossil fuels, for example with more aid, and by developing electric cars.
The energy transition will cause a loss 13 billion euros in state revenue by 2030, in taxation on fuels, and 30 billion by 2050, according to the General Directorate of the Treasury. Should we expect new taxes?
These figures reflect our ambition: to have 30% electric vehicles in the French vehicle fleet by the end of the decade. There will be no ecological transition without a fiscal transition. Ecology cannot be the pretext for increasing taxes, with the risk of turning the French against ecology.
So how can we make up for this shortfall?
We need to rethink our model. Taxation must reflect what is good or not for the planet. An example: buying a field or a forest to make a subdivision currently costs less than taking an industrial wasteland to rebuild on it. It is a problem. I am in favor of increasing taxes on these natural lands made buildable. New taxes on one side must be accompanied by tax cuts on the other.
Isn’t the notion of social justice too absent from climate policies?
We will not engage in ecology against the French. The speeches of radicalism, the broken record of those who denounce climate inaction… All this maintains a form of climate defeatism which means that then, when we ask people to make efforts, they tell us: “but why, since we are told that we are not respecting the Paris agreement? “. We must stay the course, that is ecological planning. And providing resources is the meaning of the additional 10 billion euros released in 2024. These resources must be directed towards those who need them the most.
Robert Vautard, new co-president of the IPCC, declared to 20 minutes that we were poorly prepared for future extreme weather events. Is France doomed to be late?
We need to both lower our emissions and prepare for higher temperatures. Heat waves, floods… All this is linked to climate change. In January, I will present the National Plan for adaptation to climate change, and the measures to cope with a France at +4°C. In particular, we will have to overhaul our system of resistance to natural disasters, rethink our insurance rules and our systems for schools and daycare centers.
Why hasn’t all this been done before?
Some of my predecessors did not want to go on this theme for fear that it would be understood as a renunciation. It didn’t fail either. Some MPs who know nothing about it said: “this is proof that they are giving up”. It’s exactly the opposite! It is the front and back of the same page. Even if we achieve carbon neutrality tomorrow, we will also have to face the disruption which is the sum of emissions released into the atmosphere for decades.
You declared in South West that young French people had “a tendency to denounce things but not always take them into account in their own consumer behavior”. Are young people hypocritical about the climate?
What I mean is that we have a generation that is participating in the success of fast fashion, particularly with Black Friday, which accelerates some of the difficulty in which we find ourselves. And at the same time, it is overcome by a form of eco-anxiety. I am convinced that we must give these young people the means to get involved.
According to the newspaper La Topette, you would have increased domestic flights for official travel via business planes. Do you understand that this could be shocking?
I fully accept these thefts and the need to set an example. I must have made between 100 and 130 journeys with this rule: when a journey lasts less than four hours, it takes place by train. When a journey lasts more than four hours, it takes place by plane. When a journey lasts between three and four hours, we look at the options.
Out of these hundred trips, I made around ten round trips by plane, about half of which were not with jets or business planes, but with training planes from the General Directorate of Civil Aviation. (DGAC), in cases of emergency or tragedy. Then there are a few cases where there was no trade line, so no other option. We have very good rail connections from Paris, but this is not the case throughout the country.
As Minister of Ecological Transition, do you sometimes have the impression of not being heard compared to other ministries, for example Bercy?
The longer you stay, the more you weigh. When you have a Minister of Economy and Finance who has been there for seven years, there is a personal weight. There is also a spontaneous weight of Bercy in the Republic. Furthermore, there have been a lot of changes in Minister of Ecology. When you arrive at ministry and you see the photos of all the predecessors, it shows to what extent there is a form of planned obsolescence.
However, it takes time to see results. The fact is that after 18 months in this ministry, my visibility, my legitimacy and my ability to win arbitrations are stronger. For example, in a context of budgetary tensions, ecology is where credits are progressing the most in 2024. This clearly shows that the ecological planning promised by the President of the Republic is not a slogan. It’s a reality.