Russian disinformation: “There are basically only two positions”

The attitude to the Ukraine war divides Russian families. The journalist Ekaterina Astafyeva works in Germany and explains what hostilities she experiences, who gets government propaganda – and what young people are doing about it.

tagesschau.de: The fact that many independent journalists have left Russia makes it difficult to gauge the mood in the country. Some people seem to believe the state narrative of a “necessary special operation,” while others name and oppose the war in Ukraine. Why is it that the perceptions are so different?

Ekaterina Astafyeva: It has to do with the fact that the country has been quite divided in terms of political opinion for some time – partly because opposition politicians are suppressed and cannot take part in elections. And the government does really strong propaganda and tries to convince people emotionally that the whole world around us is made up of enemies and only Russia is doing the right thing. I think all of this has contributed to the fact that people have become radicalized, so to speak – regardless of whether they support Putin or not. War is of course such an emotional topic – you can’t look away and have to find a position. And there are basically only two positions: you’re either for it or against it, there’s nothing in between. This creates a hard line between those who support Putin and those who criticize the government.

tagesschau.de: Isn’t the Russian government itself contributing to this division by setting very narrow borders? For example, by criminalizing the use of the word “war” in reference to Ukraine…

Astafyeva: In any case. In fact, I think the people who used to be more middle-of-the-road – who weren’t exactly political, but who were social activists and campaigners for civil rights – have now also become politicized and far from understanding government. Even the people who used to say, “I don’t care about politics, I just want to get on with my life,” just can’t go on with their lives the way they used to.

tagesschau.de: You work as a journalist in Germany and completed your journalistic training here. How do you find out about the war?

Astafyeva: At the beginning of the war I made a list and tried to select sources from different countries as well as different sources within the country. A week ago you could still read independent media in Russia… I also got hold of a couple of Ukrainian sources that a journalist friend of mine from Ukraine recommended to me. And then I wrote down sources from Germany and from English-speaking countries. I don’t read all of them every day, but if I notice a topic is controversial, I look for it in all sources. In war, information on both sides is very difficult to verify and the truth is probably somewhere in between. It is extremely important for me – personally and as a journalist – to hear both sides.

tagesschau.de: From which media can people in Russia still obtain information?

Astafyeva: That’s very difficult. Many independent media such as Doschd and Echo Moskwy have shut down. There is still “Meduza”, whose editorial office is in Riga – the website is blocked in Russia, but can still be surfed with a VPN app. Those who stayed — for example, Novaya Gazeta — have now said: So that we don’t have to close down, we’re no longer reporting on the war, or rather we’re calling it what the Russian government wants to hear. This is of course a catastrophe, because the people who always trusted Novaya Gazeta are now seeing that their reporting is no longer so balanced. On the other hand, one can understand the decision, because otherwise it would no longer be able to report at all. It is a negotiation with a conscience: I either tell the truth or I don’t say anything. I do not like that.

“People protest where they can”

tagesschau.de: Then there are the state and state-controlled television channels that spread government narratives. Do people believe these channels?

Astafyeva: I would say it’s mainly people from my parents’ generation and older who believe in it – but also many young people who don’t come from big cities like Moscow and Saint Petersburg and don’t have such a high level of education. The protest movement is particularly strong among students; many are now being expelled for taking part in protests. All in all, I would say: It’s really divided right now – about 50/50 from my estimation, but of course I didn’t do a study or a survey.

But I have to say that more and more people who were previously not interested or would even have supported what the government is doing said when they instigated the war: “Now it’s over. That’s too much for me, I can’t understand it anymore .” They protest where they can: not everyone takes to the streets, but at least they express themselves on social networks or in conversations. For many, this is a very big step.

tagesschau.de: How do you respond to people who believe in the legitimacy of this so-called “special operation” of Russia when you confront them with your knowledge from independent sources?

Astafyeva: I’ve often commented on the subject on Instagram and received a lot of encouragement, but also negative comments. The main thing people say in them is that I sold myself to the West, that the West paid me to post these stories. These are all propaganda slogans that you have heard before: No one can be against it out of their own stance – anyone who is against must inevitably have been paid by the USA because the USA supposedly wants to hate and destroy Russia, oppress Russians and all sorts of things . Anyone who believes something like that has already lost their reason – and it is of course very difficult to discuss it with these people. Then you don’t believe the facts and evidence, they just don’t matter.

“Russia is an empire for them”

tagesschau.de: Is this also the view propagated by the Kremlin for years and decades that Russia deserves a leading role in the world to which other states in the area have to submit?

Astafyeva: For some it is like that – especially in my parents’ generation, partly also with my parents themselves. Russia is an empire for them: we have to add new countries to us, we need more people, everyone should be afraid of us, everyone must respect us… Somehow they don’t understand that you can’t do that with violence, but with other means that you never learned. And partly it has to do with the fact that as young people they probably didn’t learn to question what they heard and check facts. This is a very important skill that people really need in the current situation and very rarely have.

tagesschau.de: You yourself said in an interview that you broke off contact with your father at times because the disinformation about the Ukraine war divided your family. Have you heard of other families who feel the same way?

Astafyeva: On Instagram, I have received a lot of messages – especially from Russia – from people who have experienced a similar situation. Yesterday I was on the phone with a friend whose parents live in Russia. She has relatives in Ukraine, but even when those relatives from Ukraine sent a video saying, “Here we stand – we are under attack, here are the Russian troops!”, her parents said, “These are all fakes .” I can’t understand. I’m not an eyewitness myself and can only argue with facts – so I can understand it to a certain extent when my father says: “You don’t know it yourself.” But not even to believe your own relatives – this is extreme.

tagesschau.de: What are the consequences in the families who feel this way?

Astafyeva: Either the topic is very hotly debated – the friend I described told about a violent Whatsapp round – or the topic is kept silent. I also tried this strategy and simply didn’t answer because I thought: After a day or two my father will notice that I don’t want to talk about it and that’s fine. That didn `t work. But many families are just trying. People my age go to demonstrations, want to do something – but don’t say a word about it to their own parents because they know it probably won’t be a good conversation. The only question is: Do you want to break off contact with your parents, never speak openly with them again, or somehow maintain harmony in the family? I can’t judge any of them.

“I tried to get active”

tagesschau.de: Can the situation be compared to 2015, when the annexation of Crimea became an issue with great potential for division in many families?

Astafyeva: In my family it is. At that time I mostly quarreled with my brother because he said: “Crimea is ours!” And I said, “Did you take history in school? Here’s the 7th grade book…” That might not have been the smartest strategy of mine, my brother was very angry at the time. But today it’s much more extreme and worse – because the sanctions in Russia are felt primarily by ordinary people, who are now losing their jobs, earning less money and can afford less food.

I have the feeling that the sanctions were much lighter back then – but now they also affect the people who used to say: I don’t care. For many in Russia, a war is far more complicated and a far greater tragedy than taking from another country a piece of land that you may never have seen and never will. Now the lives of millions of people who are suffering in Ukraine are at stake – and for many people in Russia this is much more concrete.

tagesschau.de: So, people who don’t believe the propaganda and keep trying to inform themselves are going through a lot of heartache now. How can they deal with it?

Astafyeva: If you just read the news all the time, you go insane – no matter who, journalist or not. I tried to get active: I went to demonstrations, collected donations in kind, helped as an interpreter. That brought me back to life – in the sense that I realized: I’m not just made of eyes reading the news, but: Here are my hands that can help.

We are all desperate and powerless right now because we do not understand what we can make a big difference – and yet we must not forget that we are supposed to move on. It helps to do small things in everyday life that help take control back. In the beginning I hardly ate for days, hardly slept; After that I was totally exhausted and I couldn’t have helped anyone because I couldn’t even help myself. That doesn’t do anyone any good.