War atrocities in Bucha: “Denazification narrative has an impact”

The Butscha murders are also a consequence of Russia’s declaration of war, says the Eastern Europe expert Margarete Klein. In an interview, she explains how Butscha fits into the atrocities of previous wars – and the brutalities of Russian military service.

tagesschau.de: Massacres of the civilian population in occupied places – is that an exception to what is known from Russian warfare?

Margaret Klein: We saw some of the brutalities in the Chechnya battles, where there were “infiltration camps” set up primarily by the Russian secret service against what were then known as Chechen bandits. Some things have also been seen in Syria. The events of Bucha lined up here. The question is whether it is a matter of individual soldiers going haywire or part of warfare.

tagesschau.de: Which assessment do you lean towards?

Small: Although soldiers engaged in looting out of self-interest, the reports fit well with psychological warfare, which relies on wearing down the will to resist among Ukrainian civilians and armed forces. The reports from Bucha show that there was apparently also a targeted search for people who took part in Ukraine’s so-called anti-terrorist operation against the uprising of pro-Russian separatists in Donbass in 2014 or who are part of the territorial self-defense forces of Ukraine – i.e. those those that are seen as the pillars of the Ukrainian state. This is an attempt to scare and demoralize.

“Part of Psychological Warfare”

tagesschau.de: What is known about the Russian forces in Bucha? Were they mostly simple, inexperienced soldiers or were they mostly experienced units? We also hear about looting and rape.

Small: Although we know that various units were deployed in Bucha, we cannot yet assign the crimes because information is still missing. Regular soldiers were also deployed from units in Russia’s Far East, it may have been soldiers who had just completed their military service, for whom looting could be a means of enriching themselves. For example, there are many reports of stolen laptops.

However, airborne units were also used – i.e. elite troops, with whom one can assume a more targeted approach. The “Kadyrovtsy” were also deployed, i.e. fighters who report personally to Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov. These are notorious for their brutality; their use is part of psychological warfare. Their deployment is intended to terrify the Ukrainian army and the population.

“Denazification narrative has an impact”

tagesschau.de: Looting can also happen spontaneously – without apologies. However, the military leadership would be directly responsible for the actions of the elite troops and the “Kadyrovtsy”.

Small: This is where the narrative of the so-called denazification of Ukraine comes into play. The Russian soldiers had come to liberate the Ukrainian population from a “Nazi regime”. Now the Russian armed forces have arrived in a country where they are not happily greeted as “liberators” – so the narrative needs to be adjusted. The “Nazis” are not only the supreme leadership of the country, but the Nazi ideology has penetrated deeper into the population. To a certain extent, this justifies the actions of the army.

How the experiences of conscription shape the soldiers

tagesschau.de: Is it known whether such actions are addressed in the training of soldiers?

Small: Not enough is known about this from open sources. For the “Kadyrovtsy” brutality is part of the spectrum of operations. In the ordinary armed forces, we know of a long tradition of brutality against rank-and-file conscripts, where the young recruits are “dehumanized” and subjected to cruel, degrading punishments by older conscripts and superiors. In recent years, attempts have been made to restrict this “Dedovshchina”, ie the “rule of the grandfathers”. But such experiences of violence certainly also shape how you deal with an opponent – be it soldiers or civilians.

tagesschau.de: Can you imagine that parts of the Russian leadership are right about the reports from Bucha in terms of demoralization or intimidation?

Small: When it’s part of psychological warfare, that’s what it’s all about – to intimidate. The second aspect is to stir up doubts abroad, thereby dividing public opinion there and preventing harsh countermeasures. This is supported by the fact that the Russian side is trying to blame Ukrainian forces for the actions, which they themselves produced in order to discredit Russia’s armed forces.

Turning point – for the West?

tagesschau.de: How will this affect the course of the war? Will it weaken or strengthen the Ukrainians’ morale and will to resist?

Small: The impact of the images on Western viewers could well mark a turning point because they make clear what is at stake here. Few will continue to make the absurd argument that Ukraine should surrender because that would end the bloodshed. It is now seen that capture would not mean the end of violence, but that the end of military fighting would only bring about a different kind of violence.

tagesschau.de: The reports of the weekend have led to the demand for a complete ban on imports of energy sources being raised even more vigorously. Does that make sense or has it already been priced in by the Russian leadership?

Small: The decision-making process in the Kremlin is difficult to see from the outside. But we see that economic rationality hardly plays a role anymore. It seems to me that in the short term we can do little to change the decisions that are made there. In the medium term, however, they can have a major effect.

What would help Ukraine

tagesschau.de: The calls for the delivery of not only defensive weapons but also offensive weapons to Ukraine have become louder again. Isn’t there a danger here that NATO will be completely drawn into the war?

Small: Arms deliveries alone do not make a war party. But you can help Ukraine to resist longer and gain a strong position at the negotiating table. That would be different with the establishment of a no-fly zone, because this would have to be enforced – also by force. The risk of becoming involved in the war yourself would be very high.

The conversation was led by Eckart Aretz, tagesschau.de