At the end of the month, Harald Riedel, 62, will retire. The social democrat has been treasurer in Nuremberg, the debt capital of Bavaria, for 15 years.
SZ: Mr. Riedel, did you always sleep well at night?
Harald Riedel: Actually always. Only when it came to the 2023 budget did things get a little tighter, so I woke up from time to time.
There was trouble, we’ll get to that. First of all: No independent city in Bavaria has such a high per capita debt as Nuremberg.
That’s right, and the debt continues to rise due to the high investments. In the foreseeable future, we are not likely to be caught up in this top position, given the general conditions, this can hardly be changed. For example, we are not comparable to Munich, where there are six Dax companies. Other Bavarian cities are smaller than Nuremberg, have a different social structure, no airport, no trade fair.
Even if one excludes the fee-financed own operations, the per capita debt in Nuremberg is approaching 3,000 euros – and the debt level is 1.8 billion. When you started 15 years ago, it was just under a billion.
Yes, the status has almost doubled over time. At the beginning of my term of office, we had the financial market crisis, and trade tax collapsed. In the end unfortunately Corona. But the level of debt has also risen steadily: expansion of childcare, crèches, day-care centers, school renovations, new schools – we cannot finance it on our own.
Do you understand people who say: Almost a doubling within 15 years – how is that supposed to continue?
I get it, we keep hearing that. The honest answer is: Debt reduction will not be possible in Nuremberg for the foreseeable future. Because of the income situation. And the expenses: 800 million euros in social expenses per year, personnel expenses are similarly high and will increase, as well as investments. They have quadrupled in the last 15 years.
How would Nuremberg get out of the trap?
We have done what we can work on. The structural change is successful, the trade tax revenue is increasing. Our economic structure is much broader than it was 20 years ago, and the labor market is stable. We are also limiting expenses, we are currently saving 500 jobs and 50 million euros.
Nevertheless, the debt level is increasing.
We can’t get out of this without the federal and state governments. We have many community schools where we employ our own teachers. However, the Free State only reimburses us part of the costs incurred for a standard teacher. The difference is 60 million euros per year. The City Day has also been calling for higher key allocations for years so that cities like us can start reducing their debt.
And Nuremberg’s major projects?
The state of Bavaria helped us a lot with the opera interim, covering 75 percent of the actual costs. This is fundable. And the renovation of the opera house is a dream of the future.
There are rumors of costs of 500 million to one billion.
This is how you see it when looking at opera house renovations in other cities: Frankfurt, Cologne, Stuttgart. This will not be possible without the help of the Free State.
The Frankenschnellweg?
Is currently on hold.
The concert hall was deleted, the renovation of the public baths comes against it.
When it came to the concert hall, the city council was very reasonable, even if many didn’t like it. As chamberlain, I would not have renovated the public baths either. But the city received phenomenal funding. Even I couldn’t say no anymore.
In your last household, you suddenly put the instruments on the table, and there was talk of museum closures. The protest storm was enormous.
We had a forecast from the government that the next budget would not be approved, so we would no longer have been able to act. So we had to work out a savings plan. Of course there were positions where city council approval was difficult to imagine. But the discussion was important for awareness of the problem. In the end, our budget was approved.
Mr. Riedel: Retirement at 62?
I’ve always found it convincing that in companies like Siemens, the upper management age is about 60 in order to maintain innovative strength. I think that’s a good guideline. Which is why I am skeptical about lifting the age limit for local politicians. When I look at the gerontocracy in the US Senate, it worries me.
Have you ever regretted not running as mayor candidate in Nuremberg in 2020?
No, chamberlain was always the right job for me.
But you might have given the SPD the mayor’s office.
That’s speculative. In retrospect, due to the Corona circumstances, an applicant with experience might have been the right one. Old news.