Kiev Mayor Klitschko: “We must remain democratic”

In Ukraine there is a tendency to focus political decisions on the president again – to the detriment of the regions and democracy, says Kiev Mayor Klitschko. He still thinks the timing of elections is wrong.

ARD: The people in Kiev are constantly busy with flight alarms again. Everyone is in fear. Are you afraid of that too?

Vitali Klitschko: Fear? This is an innate feeling. The one who is not afraid is lying. No matter how big you are, no matter how brave you are. Every person has these feelings. Each of us has some fear. And especially in today’s situation, where we see a lot of dead people, a lot of people injured. Everyone is afraid.

ARD: Ukraine lacks workers and, above all, Ukraine lacks taxpayers. Now Sergei Leshchenko from the presidential administration says: Ukrainians abroad are needed. The European Union should stop supporting these Ukrainians. Would you agree? And would you also say: We have to call back our compatriots from Germany, Poland, wherever?

Klitschko: I also read this interview by Sergei Leshchenko. I was really surprised because if we are a democratic country and then force people to come to Ukraine, in my opinion that violates human rights. Everyone has a right to protection and no one can force people abroad to come back. We can convince people. We can call people. We can ask, but forcing, I think, is not the right way.

ARD: Since the war, there has not only been you as mayor of Kiev, but also a military administration. What can they do better than you?

Klitschko: Military administration is certainly very necessary in the regions close to the front.

Self-government: “Foundation stone for democracy”

ARD: But Kiev is several hundred kilometers away from the front. Is the establishment of military administrations in cities like Kiev or Rivne an attempt at centralization?

Klitschko: Do you know what a paradox is? Legally, it is difficult to say: where do the functions of military administration begin and end? There are no clear dividing lines between self-government and military service.

ARD: Self-government is one of the greatest successes of democratic society in Ukraine. Would you agree that the war is being used as an excuse to return to centralization?

Klitschko: You are right, because self-government reforms and decentralization reforms have been some of the most successful reforms in recent years. And because of this, people have more influence over their city and its streets. And that is a very great success, and it is no secret: self-government is a basis, a cornerstone for democracy in every democratic country.

ARD: In this context, you warned against authoritarianism. Would you say that this is really a serious danger in this country?

Klitschko: I don’t want to criticize, because having tensions in the country these days is not good – on the one hand. But on the other hand we see that we are losing our democratic values. And to remain silent, not to draw attention, when we see ourselves losing democratic gains, would be to agree.

“Dangerous tendency” to centralization

ARD: We also see that the pressure on the press is increasing: the intimidation attempts against journalists, the opposition being practically invisible, the parliamentary debates being shown in the middle of the night. From the outside, one has the impression that there is only President Zelensky in Ukraine.

Klitschko: You’re right. We see the tendency towards centralization of media. We see centralization when it comes to decisions. A dangerous tendency – and that’s why: Not talking about it means agreeing. No! We must remain democratic. I also speak as the head of the Association of Cities of Ukraine – there is a risk of losing our democratic results, which we have had in recent years. Even in war, democratic foundations must remain, otherwise the difference to our eastern neighbor will no longer be great.

ARD: You mean Russia. It was seen at the beginning of the war that it was crucial for security that, for example, territorial self-defense worked, that cities and communities were responsible for their own security…

Klitschko: Especially in the first months, the self-government played an important role in terms of territorial defense, support for the army, protection of cities, evacuation. The Russians see this and it’s no secret: their first targets were the mayors. 37 were kidnapped, one was shot and five are still missing to this day.

“Unfortunately we see political competition”

ARD: Are you discussing this worrying development with the President? I read that you haven’t spoken to the president for two years.

Klitschko: Too bad, it’s true. We haven’t even met since the war started.

ARD: And have you ever spoken on the phone?

Klitschko: I tried. umpteen times! But unfortunately…

ARD: Is it right, in the middle of a war, that the mayor and the president don’t speak to each other? Or to put it another way: Who doesn’t talk to whom?

Klitschko: We talk to everyone. Unfortunately, we see political competition.

“An election would be a big mistake”

ARD: But there are no elections…

Klitschko: A lot of people are discussing this with our Western partners because time is up for our parliament and because time is running out for the presidency – for Mr. Zelensky. In my opinion this is a special situation. And an election, that’s a competition, that’s a competition. And this in a country where we have a very big challenge from the Russian side; that can destroy the country from within.

Second: Nine million Ukrainians are abroad. A large part of our population is now on the front lines, fighting as soldiers. And now holding elections on top of that requires very large financial resources. Making a choice would be a big mistake.

ARD: But then it would be even more important to talk to each other. What would you say to Mr. Zelensky if you could speak to him now?

Klitschko: One function of a president is: He has to unite society. He has to be a figure who brings everyone together, shoulder to shoulder. Today we are talking about the future of our country – whether Ukraine exists or not. We have to remain democratic, which is why many people are sometimes surprised that the media or journalists feel pressure from the central power. The business community is talking about pressure from the central government. That’s why I think this is a mistake. That’s why you have to correct it where necessary. And the president? He has an incredible responsibility for the entire country. The whole country must speak – with one voice.

“Militaries need support”

ARD: I saw that there is no photo of the president in your office, but there is a photo of Chief of General Staff Saluzhny.

Klitschko: We have a good relationship. And our military needs a lot of support. And we’re trying everything we can to help our military. With uniforms, protective vests, that affects helmets, that affects drones, that affects military financing…

ARD: Now there are three names on the table: Zelensky, you – Mr. Klitschko, Saluschny. All are associated with the office of the future president. Does that make things so complicated?

Klitschko: My message for every politician is: Competition in today’s world, when the question arises as to whether Ukraine exists or not – that would be a huge mistake.

Sabine Adler conducted the interview for the ARD studio Kiev. The interview was adapted for the written version.