Government consultations: “China hopes to use Germany for itself”

China wants to get Germany on its side in the conflict with the US, says China expert Mayer-Kuckuk. In order to be able to engage in dialogue again, the current government consultations are still important.

tagesschau24: Germany views China as a partner, competitor and systemic rival. This causes irritation in Beijing. Would you say that this puts a strain on the consultations?

Finn Mayer-Kuckuk: No, these consultations are an occasion to come together again and to overcome just such differences. You can see that the most critical topics were deliberately left out in order to open up channels of dialogue again. And that is very important, especially in these difficult times.

“You have to go with China work together”

tagesschau24: Is it a good thing that these government consultations are taking place, or are they perhaps not appropriate with a country like China?

Mayer cuckoo: That is absolutely appropriate. Whether we like it or not, China is the most important partner for the German economy. There is still no sign of a decoupling or a reduction in dependencies. The Institute of German Economics just published figures today that tend to show an increasing dependency.

And that means you have to work with China. Even on issues like climate protection and everything else that affects the whole planet, we cannot avoid this fifth of the world’s population. And a change of direction from Germany’s China connections will take about as long as it took to create the links, i.e. decades.

It is also important that governments have contacts at all. There are new people in office on both sides. Chancellor Olaf Scholz himself, who was Finance Minister under the previous government, is the only constant.

Since then there has been a government reshuffle in China, a new prime minister and completely new ministers. On the German side, the traffic light coalition is now in government. You didn’t know each other at all. There were no business cards from the senior officials on either side. You didn’t know who to call. And these consultations are now important in order to break the ice again after a long period of very frozen relations.

No talks with defense and foreign ministers

tagesschau24: But it is still noticeable that some government officials from both sides are not taking part.

Mayer cuckoo: Yes, that certainly has something to do with this more harmony-oriented approach. For example, Chinese Defense Minister Wei Fenghe did not come. It would have been difficult to have a sensible conversation.

China implicitly supports Russia in its war against Ukraine. Not officially, since China is neutral. But if you don’t look at the words, but at the actions, you will see a lot of support. China trades intensively with Russia. Many goods that no longer go to Russia in the West are now delivered to the Russians via China.

All of this has greatly angered Germany and its Western allies overall – and certainly contributed more to the recent ice age than the long-standing violations of human rights. A military dialogue would of course have been very, very difficult. Maybe they didn’t want these tones right now, when it’s about starting conversations at all.

China’s Foreign Minister Qin Gang also failed to attend. However, he has an excellent excuse. Until yesterday evening he was still needed in Beijing because US Secretary of State Antony Blinken was there for talks.

However, it is also suspected that Qin was not in the mood for the talks. The German Foreign Minister, Annalena Baerbock, was in Beijing in April and, just as she had promised the German public, addressed the human rights situation there very intensively.

And Qin Gang felt that was too much. He said that Germany shouldn’t talk China into it. China itself decides how to regulate its internal affairs. And maybe this cancellation is also a bit part of this mixed situation.

“In the epic battle with the USA”

tagesschau24: As I said: China is now viewed by Germany as a systemic rival. Conversely, how does China view Germany?

Mayer cuckoo: Germany is very important for China. The Chinese picture of foreign policy is: You are in an epic battle – the epic battle of the 21st century – with the US. And especially with the USA. The USA is the linchpin, so to speak.

You don’t see yourself alone against the USA. There are partners, for example along the New Silk Road trade project – like Pakistan and Kazakhstan – who tend to vote with China and belong to the Chinese bloc, so to speak. And of course Russia now, which has clearly positioned itself on China.

But there are countries that may decide one way or the other, and that you can pull a little on your own side. Or that can at least be prevented from entering into a firm, stable bloc with the USA and from supporting the USA on all issues.

And Germany is seen as such a country. Especially since there are always reservations about American politics in Germany. Germany is seen as a bit of a fickle state – at least that’s the hope. The federal government, in turn, defends itself against this perception and repeatedly emphasizes that the western allies and the USA are closer to Germany.

But, as I said, there are very good trade relations. For example, this morning all the CEOs of the main German companies met Chinese Prime Minister Li Qiang, creating a complicated picture in which China hopes to take advantage of the Germans.

Germany as a wedge between Europe and the USA?

tagesschau24: Is Germany a kind of vicarious agent for China’s interests and can it be used as a wedge to be driven between Europe and the USA?

Mayer cuckoo: One would like that. But that will not work under the traffic light coalition with the Greens and the FDP, who have taken a very critical stance on China and who have repeatedly said that the US ally is the priority for Germany.

In between, you don’t want to drive a wedge. Just as little has it been possible to trigger too much criticism from Germany of French President Emmanuel Macron. He was also in China and played exactly the Chinese game by saying that Europe could position itself in the middle. Very clear statements came from Berlin: If in doubt, we will play for Team USA.

The interview was conducted by Gerrit Derkowski, tagesschau24. The interview was slightly adapted for the written version.