interview
She is on Russia’s wanted list – but that doesn’t scare Kaja Kallas, says the Estonian head of government daily topics. She is certain that if the states join forces, Putin can be stopped immediately.
daily topics: How dangerous are Putin and Russia not only for Ukraine, but also for Estonia and Europe?
Kaja Kallas: The question is not whether it is dangerous for Estonia, but for NATO, and that depends on how the war in Ukraine ends. If we don’t do enough to stop it there, it will continue. With every further step he will become even braver. We should not forget that. There are no first or second class countries in NATO, we are all equal. That’s why we should do everything we can to stop it now.
daily topics: The conflict affects NATO, but you are also personally affected: Putin – as the first head of government – put you on the Russian wanted list and issued an arrest warrant against you. Is this a burden or an honor for you?
Kallas: Putin is clearly using this as a weapon to spread fear and show that we are not a real country. He blames me for things that are actually internal Russian affairs. But we are an independent country. This shows that he has imperialist dreams and thoughts. But yeah, when that was announced, a lot of people told me that it was a Medal of Honor. I must have done something right if the Russians are so mad at me.
daily topics: How do you manage not to be afraid?
Kallas: He wants us to be afraid. But that would mean giving him what he wants. That’s why we shouldn’t be afraid. The only thing that should scare us is fear itself, as Roosevelt said in World War II.
Three lessons from the 1930s
daily topics: Does this also have to do with the fact that you have to be a role model for the Estonian people?
Kallas: We must all lead the way and explain why we need to help Ukraine and what is at stake. It may be easier for me to explain this in my country than here, because Germany has much better neighboring countries. We learned three fundamental lessons from the history of the 1930s:
The first is that if something happens in Europe, it spreads very quickly to the rest of Europe. No one is safe if we don’t stop the aggressor.
Second, when aggression pays off somewhere, it is an invitation to use it elsewhere. We will then see more and more wars all over the world, because potential aggressors are watching very closely all over the world. In World War II, after Germany, it was Japan that invaded neighboring areas.
The third lesson is the isolation policy of the USA, which wanted to stay out of it and said it was none of their business. In the end they had to pay a high price for this. What we should learn from this is that we must stop the aggressor as early as possible.
“Our taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for this.”
daily topics: They say what Russia is really afraid of is that the EU might give the frozen funds – several hundred billion dollars – to Ukraine. But wouldn’t that be the wrong approach because it could harm the EU?
Kallas: No. That’s an interesting point. Russia causes war damage in Ukraine every day. In The Hague, the costs of these damages are documented, so that Ukraine has a legitimate claim to these reparations payments from Russia. We have the frozen Russian assets and know their value. This gives Russia a legitimate claim against us. We can offset these two claims against each other. If there is anything left after the reparations payments, we can of course give it back to Russia.
The first argument against this would be that property rights would be violated. However, the property cannot be used at all because it is already frozen. The second argument against it would be that it would harm the euro. But that wouldn’t be the case if the euro, dollar and pound did this together. According to experts, the damage would have already occurred if the funds were frozen. Third, on debt, China and others are still buying Eurobonds even though the funds have been frozen. The former head of the World Bank clearly refuted these arguments.
daily topics: German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock is not so sure. How are you going to convince them? With the arguments mentioned?
Kallas: Yes, exactly, with the arguments. It was Robert Zoellick who refuted all these arguments. It is very clear: If we all do it together, with our strong currencies, the dollar, euro, pound, yen, then the negative effects will not occur. And by the way: If we are afraid of Russia confiscating our assets, then they have already been doing so without us doing anything. The same rules do not apply to them as we do in the democratic world with the rule of law. But again: That would be within the framework of the rule of law. Russia is causing the damage in Ukraine and our taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for it.
“Our unity is our strength”
daily topics: Germany is doing a lot to support Ukraine. Could Germany do more, for example supply Taurus cruise missiles?
Kallas: Germany is doing a lot and we all have to think about what else we can do. On the one hand, there is the military support that we give and should give to Ukraine. We are doing everything we can, and Germany is certainly doing the same. If we look at the Kiel Institute’s figures, there are clearly countries in Europe that could do more. Of course I don’t know their holdings, but they could probably contribute more.
At the same time, we should also think about creative approaches to how we can put pressure on Russia to end the war. The tools at our disposal are economic sanctions and political pressure in various institutions.
daily topics: If you meet Chancellor Olaf Scholz this evening, what will you say to him? Are you sending “Taurus” cruise missiles?
Kallas: Germany should decide for itself what it can and cannot do. Germany has already done a lot. In absolute terms, Germany has supported Ukraine the most among European countries. Compared to last year, it has even doubled its support. We will definitely talk about what more we can do and how we can convince other countries to do more too. Our unity is our strength. We shouldn’t fight each other, but rather focus on finding out what we can do to end the war.
The Russians of Estonia
daily topics: A quarter of the Estonian population has Russian roots. Putin wants to take advantage of this. The fear is that he could use this as a reason to invade. How are you going to prevent that?
Kallas: First of all, you have to know that in the 1920s, when Estonia was independent, the Russian minority was three percent. When Russia occupied Estonia, they deported Estonians to Siberia and brought Russians into the country. My own family was also deported to Siberia. At the end of the occupation, the Russian minority amounted to 30 percent. You were not born in Estonia. Currently it is around 20 percent. They know very well that if the Russians come to liberate the “Russians” who live elsewhere, then they will lose their homes and their surroundings, because this also happened in the Russian-speaking regions of Kharkiv and Mariupol.
The Russians in Estonia are of course not a homogeneous group. There is a big difference between old and young people. The old ones came into the country when the Estonians were deported. They ruled the country and they want that feeling back. But young people see that Russia is attacking Ukraine and that it is wrong and that we have to take action against it. Most of our Russian-speaking people say Estonia is our homeland, we feel like Estonians. I believe that Russian-speaking people here are much more likely to believe Russian propaganda than in our country, where they see that life on the other side of the border is so much worse than here. They don’t want that.
daily topics: Just today it became known that your country successfully repelled a hybrid attack by Russian intelligence on Estonian territory. Can you tell us more about this?
Kallas: Yes, these things happen in the middle of our societies. We make them public so that other countries can also recognize these patterns. Russia is very good at creating chaos and divisions within our societies. They sow fear and play on people’s fears. They vandalized to create fear in society. We make this public so that people understand what’s behind it and also so that the perpetrators can be punished because we know who they are.
“A shadow war in our societies”
daily topics: What do you mean by vandalism?
Kallas: For example, monuments that are important to the Estonian people. There was also vandalism on the car of the interior minister and the editor-in-chief of a major media company. These are such hybrid attacks. We focus a lot on the conventional war in Ukraine, but there is also a shadow war taking place in our societies, often in the context of social media. Just recently, this happened in Germany, with the news about the bots on X that were making posts in German that were spreading throughout society. We need to know about these things and talk to people so that they recognize these patterns.
daily topics: We’re talking about war. How was it supposed to end? Of course that depends on Ukraine, but what would be your political vision?
At the Munich Security Conference, President Zelensky said: Don’t ask Ukraine when the war will end. Ask yourself why Putin is still able to continue the war. We should all think about that. The Estonian Ministry of Defense has developed a strategy: If all countries that provide military support to Ukraine allocated at least 0.25 percent of their gross domestic product to support Ukraine, then that would be more than Russia’s resources. The Ramstein coalition’s total defense budget is 13 times larger than Russia’s vastly bloated budget. And if we then add the sanctions – the Russian economy is not doing well, even if they want us to believe that. If we join forces, we can stop Putin now.
And about the sanctions: If companies in Europe still think that they can benefit from them and that it has no influence, then they are not thinking outside the box. If the war continues, we all have something to lose. That’s why we should join forces and stop the aggression.
The interview was conducted by Jessy Wellmer for tagesthemen and translated from English by Julia Rönnau.