A new general secretary has been found, but the resignation of the old general of the Bavarian SPD is having an impact. The Jusos, party youth of the Social Democrats, had accused Arif Taşdelen, 48, of behaving “inappropriately” towards young women. There was talk of intrusive questions about a cell phone number, of likes on social media platforms that were perceived as unpleasant. Not possible, the Jusos found. “Pipifax,” said ex-Bavaria SPD boss Renate Schmidt, 79, of the SZ. And Munich’s ex-OB Christian Ude, 75, is upset Munich Mercury about allegations that “cannot be put into words” but “are punished with a public execution”. All very heated and: complicated. Perhaps Christina Stockfisch, an expert on equality policy at the German Federation of Trade Unions, can help.
SZ: The Taşdelen case is about the behavior of men towards women and the question of when behavior is still appropriate – and when it is no longer so. Can you answer this question for us?
Christina Stockfisch: I don’t know enough about the case, I don’t want to say anything about that, but the General Equal Treatment Act regulates it: the person concerned decides when the threshold for harassment has been exceeded. In other words, it is harassment when the behavior is undesirable on the part of one of the parties involved and they feel that their dignity has been violated.
In the Bavarian SPD there is talk of “hypersensitivity” of some women. Can asking for a cell phone number already cross borders?
That cannot be clearly defined. Basically, it depends on the situation and the relationship between the parties involved. But it is not about how a behavior was intended. It’s about the subjective feeling when a woman or a man feels harassed or uncomfortable in a situation.
“Grapschen” is clearly an assault, punishable by law. On the other hand, asking for a cell phone number can be offensive or not, depending on facial expressions, tone of voice – and how the other person feels. Is it at all possible to objectively clarify whether misconduct has occurred or not?
You have to see the context of the behavior. There are “jokes” and sayings that would be possible in the private sphere, but are inappropriate in a professional context. It is therefore important to clarify preventively which behavior is undesirable – in the world of work, for example in company agreements.
Or in parties in an awareness concept that the Bavarian SPD now wants to give itself.
Such concepts set the rules for how to treat each other with respect. Then everyone knows how to move appropriately – and how to deal with it or who to turn to if something is uncomfortable. If there is a uniform understanding from the outset, it doesn’t even get to the point where a situation has to be evaluated afterwards. If the case has already happened, it will be difficult.
Although he denies the allegations, Arif Taşdelen had agreed to complete so-called awareness training. What do you learn there?
Basically, awareness is about being sensitive to certain situations and taking the topic of harassment out of the taboo corner. It’s often about power relations. Especially in the working world, harassment often occurs where there is a power imbalance.
For example?
“Mee Too” made it very clear for the film and media industries. Studies show this again and again in higher education. But it is also an issue in training. For example, I know of the case of a master craftsman who put his arm around his new trainee’s shoulders, which she found uncomfortable.
Which doesn’t have to have any sexualized context.
Not at all. The foreman was very proud that there was finally a woman taking part in a craft training course. So he put his arm around her shoulders and said to the other trainees: I want you to treat this woman well, otherwise you’ll have to deal with me. This was uncomfortable for her because she felt exposed as a young woman and didn’t want the special protection of her master at all. She just wanted to fit in.
How did the case go?
It is infinitely difficult to say to the master: No, I don’t want that! But this woman did. And the master said: For God’s sake, I’m really sorry, I didn’t want that at all, I was just happy and wanted to protect you. In this case, it was quickly resolved. But if the trainee hadn’t brought things up, it might have been difficult for both of them.
Is touching taboo at work, apart from shaking hands?
Not if it’s okay for both of you and for the other colleagues, it just has to be clear. It is gratifying that there is a trend in the working world towards binding collegial behavior in company agreements. This creates more security for everyone involved.
Renate Schmidt, ex-SPD head of state, says about the Juso allegations: “If someone had said earlier, you look good, I would have taken that as a compliment”. Today we immediately talk about “sexist things”. Is this a generation gap?
I don’t even know if everything was different before. But there is a much greater sensitivity today. “Me Too” acted like a catalyst. Women have suddenly spoken out about what has long remained under the covers.
Ten years ago, FDP politician Rainer Brüderle told a journalist at a hotel bar that she could “fill out a dirndl too.” There was outrage, but Brüderle remained parliamentary group leader in the Bundestag. Would that be different now?
I think almost yes. “Me Too” has significantly raised awareness of harassment. And I think it’s really good that those affected express themselves. If you don’t do anything, it usually goes on.
Must a man today fear that a woman will feel molested if he helps her into her coat? Some men say so.
If you are unsure, then you should simply ask: May I help you into your coat? Then you get a clear answer. Because it shouldn’t go so far that you feel insecure about everything.
Was everything easier in the past, some would also ask: better?
It doesn’t get us any further if we ask how it used to be. We have to check rules again and again. If a company agreement is 20 years old, it is worth taking a look to see if everything is still there updated is. It’s not about before, it’s about doing things well now so that everyone can feel comfortable and treated with respect.