UN Ambassador Heusgen: Away from “realities of the sixties”

The German UN Ambassador Heusgen is leaving the Foreign Service today. In an interview with ARD, he emphasized the importance of a reform of the UN Security Council and said: “We mustn’t let China and Russia chase us down.”

ARD: We sit in the heart of the United Nations: in the Security Council room. When you represented Germany on this body from 2019 to 2020, the first thing you did was to openly open the heavy curtains to let in light. Did that actually result in the transparency you had hoped for?

Christoph Heusgen: I believe that we have made some movement in these two years that we have been on the Security Council. We have contributed to the fact that the meetings become a little livelier, that the colleagues now and then abandon their prepared statements, speak freely, that there is a dialogue. And I think it is very, very important that you not only read the prepared slips of paper, but that you actually talk to each other and work together to find solutions. That has already succeeded.

ARD: Is this room still relevant, or could the curtains remain completely closed?

Heusgen: Of course, this space is relevant. We often see that we are not really getting anywhere on certain issues – Yemen, Syria. On the other hand, we must not forget the many blue helmets in which the United Nations and its troops ensure that peace is maintained, that the presence of blue helmets brings stability to a region. These missions are decided regularly here in the Security Council – and that remains important.

ARD: And yet Russia and China occasionally meet and block important resolutions. We think of Syria, the humanitarian border crossings or the Uyghurs – China has its own interests here. Doesn’t that have to stop at some point so that the Security Council does not become completely irrelevant?

Heusgen: What must not stop is that we, who stand up for international humanitarian law and human rights, keep these issues on the agenda here and that we do not allow ourselves to be fooled by China and Russia, who oppose it. We have to keep it on the agenda, and we have to rely on the fact that, in a community of states that upholds universal human rights, we will at some point convince Russia and China to join forces again.

“Not with the Bundeswehr at all trouble spots”

ARD: Mr. Ambassador, how do you see the German role in the future? What are the expectations of Germany and what is Germany ready to give?

Heusgen: The German role is not just limited to the Security Council. We support the United Nations on a very broad basis. Germany is the second largest donor to the entire UN system. The German role will not be that we work with the Bundeswehr in all trouble spots in the world, but our role is a much broader one because our approach is much broader. There is no conflict that you can resolve by military means alone.

ARD: If Germany is that important, should it have a permanent seat on the Security Council? And what chances do you see for this?

Heusgen: For many years we have maintained the claim that we want a permanent seat on the Security Council. And of course that has to do with the fact that we are the second largest donor, that we are involved in a wide variety of areas for which the United Nations stands. But there is more to it. The point is that the composition of the Security Council should reflect the realities of the 1960s. The composition of the Security Council should reflect what is being said in the world today. With 54 states, Africa is not represented by a permanent member in the Security Council. Overall, the aim is to reform the composition so that this Security Council has credibility and legitimation in the eyes of the population.

“Such a friendship will last”

ARD: In the past few years you have also very often found yourself screwing your teeth on the reform. Do you still have the feeling that movement is coming in?

Christoph Heusgen: As with many topics at the United Nations, the motto here is: drill thick boards. Giving up is not an alternative because we believe in the UN and because we have to keep working to modernize and reform it. And this year we have been very focused on this topic. We have succeeded in taking small steps forward. We have also succeeded in breaking the blockade of regions and states. For the first time, we had an open debate in the General Assembly, where opinions collided. And that has already made a difference.

ARD: After 41 years in diplomacy, you will not only say goodbye to New York, but also to the Foreign Service. In your opinion, what is the significance of personal relationships, sometimes even friendships within the Security Council and in politics in general?

Christoph Heusgen: You know, that might surprise you. But here in the Security Council we have very, very often clashed with our Russian colleagues. And on every occasion we had the impression that international law had been broken, that people had to suffer, including what Russia was doing. With the example of Syria, we have always had very, very tough arguments. But beyond that, as ambassadors, we really respected each other. And we’ve also developed a certain friendship. And such a friendship will survive the end of my time in New York.

ARD: What’s next? Shooting festival in your hometown Neuss on the Rhine or something more interesting?

Christoph Heusgen: What more interesting than the shooting festival in Neuss? There is not any. No, I will continue to be connected to politics. I started to tell young students about my experiences at my alma mater, the university in St. Gallen, Switzerland, where I did my doctorate, and also to convey the values, the basic convictions that German and European politics stand for . This mediation is a lot of fun. I am also chairman of the foundation group of the Munich Security Conference and will continue to be actively involved in international politics.

The interview was conducted by Antje Passenheim and Christiane Meier, ARD-Studio New York.